昌旭正：您的作品很直观，让人一眼就知道，这是郭润文的作品。您认为您的作品的这种直观感受是在哪些方面让大家这样一目了然、心有灵犀?

　　郭润文：我的绘画是写实的。写实的油画有一些常规性的东西，第一，具体;第二，技巧。而且我们的绘画是从学习十九世纪以前的一些西方大师得来的经验，因此我们(中国写实画家)的绘画有很多共同的地方;而我的绘画之所以在写实的氛围中使人一目了然，与他人不同，恐怕有这么几点：第一，在人物选择方面具备我个人所要求的一些个性化特征——人物的神态、表情、相貌，这种偏爱，造成了观众一眼就能识别出我的作品;第二，是我的绘画在技术上的一种反映，一种对油画语言探索所产生的技巧方面的经验和体现，使观众直接并迅速地接受我的作品;这是两个主要方面。另外，是我对绘画的精神内在的要求。比方说我在画肖像、静物时所选择的对象有一种共同的、内在的涵义：略带有些许悲剧形式与情节，并透露出一种悲剧的特征。这就是我的绘画能让观众一眼识别出来的原因。

　　昌旭正：我觉得您的作品有种舞台戏剧的情景。

　　郭润文：这种戏剧性恰恰就是我的绘画作品里所包涵的主题。不是简单地画一张肖像、静物、风景，我在选择与描绘的过程中倾注了一种感情，追求一种能够让人们产生联想的思想境界方面的内容，这是我对绘画的一种要求。它是从绘画深处透露出来的，而不像小说里文字的表达，“忧郁”、“悲伤”等一个词就代表了所要表达的情绪。

　　昌旭正：通过外在的表现反映出一种内在的精神情感，甚至一种气氛。您的作品在技巧上表现得很到位，再加上对精神情感的表现，这两者相互结合，相互影响，构成了您作品的整体感受和面貌。

　　您作为一位具有一定思想性的写实画家，在创作上您一直秉持的创作理念是什么，或者说您想要表达怎样的思想?

　　郭润文：我的绘画作品所追求的艺术秉性就是一定要画出我所感动的东西。这是一种外在事物或社会生存环境使我产生的感动，我想要把这种感动表现出来，这是我追寻的。我的绘画所要表现的感动建立在一种慢热的状态中，而不是突发性的，不像一件惊心动魄的事情，一个突发事件，令人十分的震动、惊讶。我不是从这个角度，我需要的是一种慢热的、人文的感动，这种人文的感动是什么?是一种细嚼慢咽所体会到的精神品质，它使我产生一种依依不舍的眷恋情绪，我要将这种情绪在我的画面中表现出来，这是我所追求的。在我的画面中看不到惊心动魄的场面，看不到突发性事件的影响，我的绘画是来自精神含义层面的，人物的表情、手势、服饰、环境、气氛所透露出的一种舒缓的感染力。

　　昌旭正：是一种恒定的、沉稳的、一点点透露出来的，使人一眼看上去就立刻被他所吸引，同时又说不出被他的什么所吸引，是一种需要细嚼慢咽，慢慢品味的东西，正如喝茶一般。

　　郭润文：细细地咀嚼，细细地品读才能够体验到的。但有一个原则，就是我的绘画第一眼的视觉感受一定要吸引人，虽然是传统绘画，但是很强烈，在展馆中会很迅速地被捕捉到，吸引人们走向作品前驻足欣赏，细细品读。

　　昌旭正：我已经四次在您的作品前驻足了，细细品读，慢慢品味，并且需要心很静，但当站在您作品前我的心就已经开始静了，心无旁骛，这样才能感受到这种情绪、思想。

　　郭润文：你的理解很准确。

　　昌旭正：您曾经说过“从1985年到1990年之间的绘画，是纯粹的，每个人都没有在市场这个问题上考虑过多”，那时市场还没有介入，或者说介入很少，而现在有些年轻画家对自己作品的市场性很注重，您怎么看待这个问题?

　　郭润文：我是这样理解的，对中国而言，自1985年至1990年是社会变革的重要时期，意识形态的重大变革是那个年代最突出的特征，美术界也同样如此，比如我们所讲的美术界的“八五运动”，它实际上是中国当代艺术对西方现代艺术的一种直接借鉴，这是“八五运动”的起源。当时的中国艺术家对西方当代艺术如饥似渴的学习和表现十分强烈，我们就是那个时代的年轻人，那时出现两类不同的人：一类是极其激愤地学习当代艺术的语言和形式的艺术家;一类是对西方当代艺术持相对观望态度的艺术家，他们对传统艺术的直接观看也产生一种对西方大师学习的愿望。这两类艺术家同处于横向的平台上，所做的同一件事情就是学习，这种学习是一种极其单纯的、纯粹的学习，不带功利。为什么说不带功利呢?第一，他们的学习是带有摸索性的，不会让自己的作品在市场或人们所需求的利益的环境驱使下产生作用，他们的学习是纯粹的、单纯的，他们希望能够迅速地掌握我们过去所极为缺少的东西，并建立到自己的艺术体系中，这是当时所有艺术家所共同研究的问题，最重要的契合点;第二，当时的艺术品市场处在一个极为封闭落后的环境下，没有市场的干扰，没有物质利益的诱惑，艺术家的心灵是非常单纯的，艺术家能够在他们本身所喜爱和迷恋的艺术形式中去深入探讨、研究。因此我说当时的艺术家心灵是干净的、纯粹的，那时的艺术界呈现出一片繁荣的景象，那是一个美好的年代。

　　但是，是不是说现在就不好了呢?我不这样认为，我们需要一分为二地去分析看待这个问题。那个年代没有市场的左右，产生了一批具备虔诚艺术信仰的艺术家。后来，艺术品市场逐渐形成，他们通过艺术品市场把自己的作品放在一个有价值的位置，这个时期的艺术家所做的艺术品是不是不好了呢?不对，我认为，他们到了收获的时期。我一直认为，艺术品市场既有好的一面，也是坏的一面，是一把双刃剑。好的一面，它促使艺术品持续不断地发展，使艺术品产生了价值，也促使艺术家获得利益之后的再创作，产生了创造的动力，也是对艺术家的一种尊重。艺术家的地位提高了，他的艺术作品也有了价值，才能更多地引发人们对他的关注，这是市场的作用。从全球范围来看，艺术品具有价值是很普遍和正常的现象，我们认定一件作品价值的高低往往通过一个最直观的表现方式，就是它值多少钱。它不好的一面是什么呢?它有时候干扰了艺术创作的视线，它使艺术家沉迷于适应市场的状态之中，使艺术不能持续长久地发展，同时也会诱导年轻的艺术家进入一个不加研究，仅仅迎合市场的那种粗俗、肤浅的功利状态中，从而葬送了一些艺术家。

　　昌旭正：但是，我觉得，正是因为有这些诱惑，才能显示出一个画家艺术追求和素质的高低，有些这方面要求不高的画家注定要被淘汰出去的，市场也具有一种去伪存真的作用。

　　郭润文：对，你说得很对。有些画家，是很好的艺术家;但也有一些是糟糕的，他的作品是糟粕，应该被淘汰，留下的才是那些具备个性化、研究性以及具有天分的独立的艺术家，这是艺术品市场起到的正面的影响。

　　实践是检验真理的唯一标准，同样，时间也是检验艺术作品好坏的标准。艺术作品要具有一种永恒性，要经得住时间的考验，必须要有时间的积累，要有面临诱惑而保持住内心的真诚的执著，要经历一些生活和现实的考验，才能站得住脚。

　　昌旭正：您的作品在市场与学术方面把握得很好，我曾经听过这样一种说法：“现在的学术性是未来的市场性”，不知您怎样看待和理解市场性与学术性这两者的关系?您认为现在的年轻画家应该怎样去把握这两者之间的关系?

　　郭润文：这句话提得非常好。当我们对艺术的某个阶段进行认真的学习，认真的积累经验而创作出一批非常具有价值的艺术作品时，随着时间的发展，最后进入到艺术品市场，这些绘画的价值能够得到非常高位的体现。比如，我们过去所看到的那些国内外的大师作品，是不是一产生就具备这样的价值?不是的。很多艺术作品在产生之时，并没有从市场这个角度考虑问题，而是作为一种内心的表达，他们作品来自于纯真的心灵。但是随着艺术品市场的发展，他们的作品被纳入其中，立刻就反映出：优秀艺术家的好作品具有很高的市场价位。比如齐白石的作品，最早时期他的一张画只能被用来换取一点物品，甚至非常廉价地卖出去，他从来没有想过自己的绘画能卖到如此之高的价格;早期吴冠中先生的诸多绘画作品甚至送给了别人，而他的作品在当今市场中的价值我们也都有目共睹的。为什么呢?说明他们的作品来自于真诚的艺术心灵，而不是市场的要求。所以我认为年轻的艺术家应该把握好一种关系：当你作画时也应该发自内心，发自对艺术的深入研究和探讨，而不要发自于市场的需求，千万不要带有利益观念，没有意义，只是空中楼阁。不要把画画当成赚取钱财的手段，一拿起画笔就想我这张画要卖多少钱，那这张画就不可能画好。这种功利太直接，实际上是天方夜谭。为什么呢?艺术作品总是随着艺术家的艺术地位的提高而产生不同的价位，在一个比较低的艺术地位下，你怎么可能把你的画卖到一个令人乍舌的价格呢!所以不要去想这个问题，没用!你只需想到如何把这张作品画好，才是最实际的问题。如果你将来一旦成功了，你的作品一定是藏家们纷纷争抢的对象。

　　昌旭正：不能急于求成，作画时不能带有功利心，保持一颗常态的心，纯朴自然。

　　郭润文：对，就是这样。

　　昌旭正：现在有些年轻画家的作品能看得出模仿名家的痕迹，他们面临一个困境，没有自己的艺术语言。您能站在一个这方面的成功者的角度，给他们提出一些建议吗?

　　郭润文：实际上是这样的，我们这一代人过去是从传统中学习，从当代艺术中学习，学习西方大师;而现在的年轻艺术家很直接，他们既学习西方的艺术家，也学习目前成功的中国艺术家。站在这个角度，他们需要迅速从其老师所传达的知识中找到一种成功的捷径，这是无可厚非的。但是有一个点，艺术具有很强的排他性。比如，我建立了自己的个人风格，如果有第二个人延续我的路，那他就是在模仿，不管是写实绘画还是当代艺术，如果一个艺术家把别人已成的经验作为自己唯一追求的目标，我觉得是不对的。一个成功艺术家的成功之处就在于建立了自己独特的个人艺术语言。年轻艺术家如果以模仿成功艺术家的方式，把别人的艺术经验作为自己成功的捷径的话，不妥。如果这样持续下去，艺术家最重要的个人风格在他身上不具备，那么这个年轻的艺术家也就没有了成功的可能性。

　　昌旭正：也就是说借鉴是可以的，但它只是学习的一个过程。

　　郭润文：对，作为老师的经验的一种学习，然后把这种学习引入到自己的艺术作品中去并加以改变，使其少走一点弯路，仅此而已，但绝对不能成为终生的模仿。我觉得现在的年轻艺术家学习的条件非常好，既有西方大师的作品可以学习，能够轻易地看到原作，出国或国外大师在国内的展览;也可以借鉴一些成功艺术家所积累的艺术经验，过去可没有这么多有成功经验的艺术家，而现在各种不同风格的成功艺术家都有，这是一个很好的学习环境。但是要牢记：学习了，必须要走出来，进入到个人的艺术语境中，建立个人的风格，而且在这种明确的风格之下持之以恒的坚定地走下去，对自己个人风格深入的研究，这是我对现在年轻艺术家的一个忠告。

　　Our Artistic Ideal and Reality:

　　Interviewer / Chang Xuzheng

　　Chang Xuzheng: There’s a strong sense of individuality in your paintings, one can almost tell at the first glance that they are works of yours. In your opinion, what makes your work so distinguished from others?

　　Guo Runwen: My paintings are realist. And there are conventions in realist paintings, such as concreteness of the figure and skills of sketching. Besides, in our training of painting, we learn from western classical realism masters; therefore the works of Chinese realist painters share a lot in common in style. I think there are several factors that establish my individuality among these realist paintings: first, my choice of models shows strong personal preference. The audience can easily recognize my works by the appearances and expressions of the characters. Second is my drawing skill, which through the exploration of the language of oil-painting has developed my own style. These are the two main factors. Moreover, my spiritual demanding towards painting also shows artistic uniqueness. For example, when I work on portraits and still lifes I prefer to present objects that share universal and internal connotations: forms and plots that covey a tragic feeling. The factors mentioned above can explain why my works are so easily recognized by viewers.

　　Chang Xuzheng: It seems that your works involve scenes of stage play.

　　Guo Runwen: The dramatic feelings are precisely the theme of my works. My paintings are more than portrait, still life and landscape literally. During the process of choosing subjects and working on paintings, I pour my sentiments into them and try to inspire people with the contents; thus what I require and pursue. The sentiments are revealed from the depth of the picture, instead of concluded simply in words like “melancholy” or “sorrowful” in a novel.

　　Chang Xuzheng: That is to say, your works reflect an inherent spirituality or even an atmosphere through their appearance. Your painting skill and your representation of something spiritual interact with each other and finally constitute the overall feelings and features of your wroks.

　　As a contemplative realist painter, what is your creative concept? Or what do you want to express in your works?

　　Guo Runwen: To draw something touching has been my artistic pursuit. Sometimes I am moved by an object or the social living environment that surrounds me, and I want to represent this sensation. However, I don’t want it to be too sudden or astonishing. Instead, I need it to come slow, and more humanistic. And what does it mean by a humanistic sensation? It is a spiritual quality that needs to be understood by carefully chewing, which makes me so sentimentally attached to it. What I pursue is to convey this emotional attachment in my paintings. On my canvas there’s hardly any thrilling scenes or intense feelings, but spiritual calmness. The emotional appeal is expressed subtly through the person’s expression, gesture, clothing, surrounding and atmosphere.

　　Chang Xuzheng: It’s a constant and stable feeling that reveals itself little by little, while at the same time attracts people for the first view. And intriguingly it’s difficult to say what exactly attracts me, perhaps it’s something needs to be chewed and tasted slowly, just like tea-tasting.

　　Guo Runwen: Yes, it is necessary to contemplate in order to experience my paintings. But it is also my principle to create strong visual attractiveness, despite the fact that they are traditional paintings. I want them to be attractive enough to capture people’s eyes, and invite them to appreciate and contemplate before them.

　　Chang Xuzheng: It’s been four times that I stopped by your painting. It really requires concentration to read into your work. But when I stand in front of it, my mind became calm and peaceful, so that I will be able to experience the emotions and thoughts in your painting.

　　Guo Runwen: Your understanding is very accurate.

　　Chang Xuzheng: Once you said ‘The paintings from 1985 to 1990 are pure art, at that time people had little concern on the market.’ During that period, the art market had not so much influence on artistic creation as it has today. Nowadays, some young artists pay much attention to the market value of their works. What do you think of this phenomenon?

　　Guo Runwen: From 1985 to 1990, China has been through important social transformations. Critical changes have taken place in ideology, which also influenced the field of art. For example, the ‘1985 art movement’ reflects directly how Chinese contemporary artists borrowed ideas from the west. At that time, the young Chinese artists were showing great enthusiasm in learning western contemporary art, and I was one of them. Under the same influence emerged two types of artist: one is the artists who devote themselves in imitating the form and artistic language of contemporary art; the other is those who held a conservative attitude to contemporary art, while hoping to learn from old masters. Though different in inclination, what these two types of artist share in common was their passion to learn. It was a non-utilitarian passion, pure in essence. Why is that non-utilitarian? First, their learning was exploratory, so they would not explode their works to the market demand; it was pure learning: they hoped to acquire the knowledge that we didn’t have in the past and absorb it into their creative system. It is a problem concerned by all Chinese artists at that time. Second, the art market was far from developed at that time. Without any interference from the market or temptation of material interest, the artists had a simple mind, so that they were able to explore the artistic style in which they were fascinated. Therefore I said the artists of that time were clean and pure in mind. It was a wonderful era when the development of art was in great prosperity.

　　However, does it mean today is worst than the past? I don’t think so. We need to analyze this issue dialectically. When there was scarcely any interference from the market, there emerged some artists who devoted themselves faithfully to art. As the art market gradually came into being, they profited through merchandising their works. Is it to say that their works deteriorated? My answer is no. I think they have just come to their harvest time. The art market is always a double-edged sword which has both good side and bad side. The good side is that it motivates the continuous development of art and produces value in artworks, thus encouraging the artists to create more works and improving their status. As the artists’ fame rises, so does the value of their artworks and public attention. Thus is the function of art market. From a global perspective, the commercialization of art is a common and normal phenomenon. We always judge the value of artworks by their prices. So what is the bad side of art market? Sometimes it interferes with artist’s creation, adjusting them to fit the market, consequently causing negative influences on the long-term development of art. It also induces some young artists to carter to the market demands, producing vulgar and superficial artworks and eventually ruins their career.

　　Chang Xuzheng: But in my opinion, it is precisely the existence of art market that reveals the artistic pursuit and the quality of artists. The market plays a role of selection: artists who perform badly are destined to be eliminated.

　　Guo Runwen: You are right. There are of course good artists and bad ones. But I think the positive outcome should be like this: the artists who stand steadily in the market are those talented, independent, individualistic and devoted to artistic research.

　　We say that practice is the sole criterion for testing truth. Likewise, time is a criterion for testing the quality of artworks. To stand the test of time, there must be an eternity and the accumulation of time in the artwork. As an artist, one has to maintain his sincere dedication to art though facing various temptations and hardships in life.

　　Chang Xuzheng: Your works balance well in both marketing and academic fields. I have heard such a saying:‘The academic now is the marketing in the future.’ So what do you think of the relation between the market value and academic value of artwork? Do you have any advice for the young artist nowadays on how to deal with this relation?

　　Guo Runwen: That’s a good question. With the academic training and experience gained, we have created works of art of high academic value. As time passes, when they enter the market, the value will be eventually reflected relatively on a high price. A great number of masterpieces were not worth as now they are. Many artworks are produced as artists’ self-expression, without considering the market. But once introduced into market, their value would immediately be reflected: better works get higher prices. For instance, Qi Baishi, who in his early years exchanged his works for daily necessities or sold them cheaply, had never thought that one day they would be so valuable today; many of Wu Guanzhong’s early works were given to friends as gifts, which are hot demand nowadays. Their artworks followed their artistic soul instead of market orientation. Thus is my advice to young artists: when you take up the brush, do not think about the market demand or economic interest, which are meaningless and vain; you should paint from your heart, from your understanding of art. Art should not be considered as a method of profit-making: you would never create excellent work if you think of its selling price at the very beginning. It’s a waste of time thinking such things, because the price of artwork corresponds to the fame of the artist. So all you have to do is to concentrate on the artistic creation itself. Once you succeed in producing outstanding works, they will definitely become hotcakes to collectors.

　　Chang Xuzheng: So do not craze for quick success; keep an ordinary and natural mind in the process of artistic creation.

　　Guo Runwen: That’s right.

　　Chang Xuzheng: Some young artists nowadays are facing the difficulty of inventing their own artistic language. What’s your advice for them?

　　Guo Runwen: Artists of our generation learn from traditions, from old masters and contemporary art; while young artists nowadays are eager to find a shortcut to success from the information they have got, they learn from western artists and some successful Chinese artists, of which I think there’s nothing wrong. However, there’s a strong exclusiveness in art. That is to say, if someone extends the style established by me, then he is mere imitating. Imitating other’s experience should not be the artist’s goal, no matter in realist painting or contemporary art. The symbol of a successful artist is his unique artistic language. Always copying from others will never make a great artist, but eventually damage one’s creativity and the possibility to succeed.

　　Guo Runwen: Yes. The experience of great artists can be a reference in creating, but you can’t imitate others all the time. Nowadays it is easy for young artists to get access to all different kinds of information: there are so many replicas and prints of classical masterpieces; going abroad to world famous museums becomes more convenient; and there are various exhibitions held at all times. Young artists today have far more resources than we had. But I hope them keep in mind that it is important for an artist to establish his own individuality and be persistent on your artistic pursuit. Thus is my advice to them.